Curse

Zodiac Meteor · Oct 25, 2008, 03:19 AM // 03:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkGanni

PvE is already easy as it is, making it easier would be ridiculous.

/notsigned

You didn't read

Quote:

Why PvE only skills? We have a ton to make it easy! The answer is easy. For spicing things up. Still to this day people are trying to find PvE Builds for fighting or farming. With this it will open new doorways for farming and/or fighting. Use those experience scrolls that has been sitting in storage for skill growth. We possibly used every "good" farming build possible to Guild Wars. This will make the possible much bigger. Make kicking butt more fun. My formula could be used in PvP. But start a little at a time. Also, you cannot copy some existing PvE skills. Shadow Form, Protective Spirit, Minions, Forms, Archers Signet, Etc. However, you can have the same 3 customized skills (If the elite is the same). Of course, there is also 3 copied skills in game already (Heal area, etc.)

Quote:

The more things to read, the less people would read.

Did I not say that at the end?

Quote:

You put a lot of time into this

No, not really, Once I get an idea I stick with it until I lose inspiration.
I have over 30 unfinished video games sitting in my documents. I have 5 finished.

Konig Des Todes · Oct 25, 2008, 06:49 AM // 06:49

Funny how most of the /notsigns are for what you already argued against in your OP.

Anyways

/signed because it will add more customization, give me the ability to have skills named after my characters who saved the world multiple times, and it's balanced.

It can be exploited, but what can't nowadays anyways.

I would like to see this as one of the big monthly updates. And in GW2.

If it stays balanced, we control the names, and it costs a pretty penny (with the 4 freebies you said), I'll /sign for it.

Although, there are more important things to br added (aka, in-game name changer and a cosmetics NPC). But it would be nice if ANet got around to something like this. Same with the whole self-made Green weapons.

More customization ftw, even if these PvE skills are just as strong as regular skills (instead of the PvE skills we currently have).

Also, for those saying "it will make PvE too easy" Not if there is a limit on how many of these customized skills you can make and if the point system that is proposed doesn't allow them to be too powerful without drawbacks (high energy, exhaustion, long casting time, etc.). However, the current PvE-only skills make PvE too easy. I didn't want the buff to them, and now I would like them nerfed (or just redone, I personally don't like the EN PvE skills because they are not linked to a profession).

DarkNecrid · Oct 25, 2008, 07:10 AM // 07:10

One of my favorite MMORPG's has this exact system, and I love it.

/signed because its PvE

jaximus · Oct 25, 2008, 09:14 PM // 21:14

/clap at the effort, but nothnx. it would be hard to implement, and you could get monumental impacts with synergy with other skills without having some enormous drawback.

an example. using shadowform, youd make a spell that gave you exhaustion but basically nullified the 33% damage redux, then make the other if you have exhaustion youd do xx% more damage. both have a negative so you could have a pretty okay positive. or like a frenzy for damage, and while in shadowform you take double damage but deal a xx% more. owait you dont take damage in shadow form...

/notsigned

isamu kurosawa · Oct 25, 2008, 09:51 PM // 21:51

ok, ok having a go of this system i have made the following skill:

Bat out of Hell. (elite)

Melee Attack: (would have used "skill" but it isnt on the list)

Shadow Step to target foe. If Bat out of Hell hits, That foe and all foes in the area are knocked down. you steal +X health and inflict a Deep Wound, Daze and Bleeding for X seconds to all foes affected by Bat out of Hell. One random other party member is resurrected with full Health and Energy.

Thats:
base +10
elite + 5
Deep Wound -2
Knockdown -3
Daze -2
Bleeding -1
Shadow step -1
Life Stealing -2
In the area -3
Resurrection -1

Even if you use the excuse that this system is just an example, such a thing could easily be exploited to create a skill far too powerful even for pve.

Zodiac Meteor · Oct 25, 2008, 10:26 PM // 22:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaximus

/clap at the effort, but nothnx. it would be hard to implement, and you could get monumental impacts with synergy with other skills without having some enormous drawback.

an example. using shadowform, youd make a spell that gave you exhaustion but basically nullified the 33% damage redux, then make the other if you have exhaustion youd do xx% more damage. both have a negative so you could have a pretty okay positive. or like a frenzy for damage, and while in shadowform you take double damage but deal a xx% more. owait you dont take damage in shadow form...

/notsigned

You can take damage in shadow form. If you get hit with bane signet in HM. 50x2(HM) x50% = 150 damage. Vampire Touch, 65x2x50%=195 damage

Hmmm, that's a good point.

I'll try to recreate the increased damage skill with my formula.
(After Major Skill Balance Fix)

Max level = +25
Enchantment Spell = -0
Target self =+3
Effect 1= +50% more attack damage = -13
Effect 2= Duration = 11 seconds, -3
Effect 3= Take 50% more damage= +5
(Points left over)
14 points
Energy cost = 10, -4
Casting time = 1 second, -7
Recharge = 12 seconds, -5 points

Spell says
Shadow Form Buffer (Level 15) (Custom name)
Enchantment Spell = For 11 seconds your attacks deal 50% more damage, but take 50% more.

Energy =10
Casting time=2
Recharge =12

But, UW farmers don't use attacks, so...
Max level =+25
Enchantment Spell -0
Causes Exhaustion +2
Target Self = +3
Effect 1= Deal 50% more damage with spells. -20
Effect 2= Take 50% more damage = +5
Duration = 15 seconds, -4
Casting = 2 seconds, -5
Energy = 15, -2 points
Recharge = 15 seconds, -4

Name = Spell Buffer for Shadow Form (Level 15)
Enchantment Spell=For 15 seconds you deal 50% more damage but take 50% more damage. This Spell causes Exhaustion.

Recharge = 15
Energy = 15
Casting = 2

That looks like a combo called Intensity + "By Urals Hammer!". Except mine has A LOT shorter recharge. But that combo has less energy, less casting time, does not cause exhaustion and doesn't have +50% more taken damage.

To top that you can only do +17% more damage with Shadow Form on.

However add this spell into the mix = +66% more damage. But then you will be 6 skills down because you need Shadow Form, Paradox and Glyph of swiftness to keep this up. Means for the +66% you can only have 2 attack skills.
Lava Font = 41 damage /2.5 for level 150 armor x 66% = 33 damage for 5 seconds. That's adding the 2 skills with +30 seconds and more recharge.
Your last skill has to be Fire Attunement to reduce energy.

Your left with 1 attack skill and it it's best does 33 damage for 5 seconds

Or you can make the exact enchantment that does the same damage (66.6%) as adding the 2 other skills and save a spot. However, if you get hit with anything that isn't an attack or spell you take 100% more damage. BUT, you can take "By Urals Hammer!" and the 2 PvE custom skills. (ONLY 2 NON-ELITE AND 1 ELITE, Shadow Form is an elite) For a total of
+91% damage, /2.5 for 150 armor +41 damage = 39 damage for each second with all 3 skills on or 33 damage.

(REMEMBER, to have both skills on, you need 30 energy to cast and both cause exhaustion. To cast the spell Lava Font you need 10 energy (Get 4 back) So you need 36 energy to cast the combo. To recast it at 15 second again. (15 seconds can't get you 30 energy and that exhaustion back) (You will be out of energy ASAP)

As I said,

Quote:

REMINDER: I DIDN'T THINK THIS ALL THE WAY. I'm not going to add every little detail. The more to read, the less people would read.

A lot of farming can come from combo's. It's possible to invent a ton of Farming possibilities.

Quote:

Bat out of Hell. (elite)

Melee Attack: (would have used "skill" but it isnt on the list)

Shadow Step to target foe. If Bat out of Hell hits, That foe and all foes in the area are knocked down. you steal +X health and inflict a Deep Wound, Daze and Bleeding for X seconds to all foes affected by Bat out of Hell. One random other party member is resurrected with full Health and Energy.

Thats:
base +10
elite + 5
Deep Wound -2
Knockdown -3
Daze -2
Bleeding -1
Shadow step -1
Life Stealing -2
In the area -3
Resurrection -1

Remember, you can only have 4 effects, you 6 (Deep Wound, Knockdown, Daze, Bleeding, life steal and rez)

Even if it is possible to have all of those effects. The conditions will last 0 seconds. Life stealing will also be 0 because use used all points. Rez (Which I haven't gotten to) would add 5 seconds to the casting time. Health, casting time and energy depends on the points

Your Spell would say

Shadow Step to target foe. Steals 0 life from all foes in the area and knocks them down. Foes also suffers from daze for 0 seconds, bleeding and deep wound 0 seconds. Also rezes all allies in the area to 5% health and 0 energy.

Recharge = 90
Energy = 25
Casting Time = 10

The spell can grow and add +15 points. But where do they go? You have so many effects. Durations for bleeding, deep wound, daze, life steal. Don't forget the casting addition for rez. Recharge is can go to 15 seconds with 4 points. Energy can go to 15 with 3 points. Casting will still be HUGE. You have 9 things to put 15 points into. (Technically, with the limit, you have 7)

That spell is worse than the PvP spell Smiters Boon (PvP) Just take out rez knockdown and life steal you may have a decent spell. Condition spreading shadow step. (The more effects, the shorter the duration) So spread a couple AoE conditions for a short while. Go into the middle of a spell casting mob. Spread the daze and have a poison tip barrager to interrupt them. Awesome condition spreading.

MithranArkanere · Oct 25, 2008, 11:15 PM // 23:15

Phew... not that I disagree with the system, I loved the system in Elder Scrolls, but such a HUGE work for a single skill?

isamu kurosawa · Oct 25, 2008, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

You can take damage in shadow form. If you get hit with bane signet in HM. 50x2(HM) x50% = 150 damage. Vampire Touch, 65x2x50%=195 damage

Hmmm, that's a good point.

I'll try to recreate the increased damage skill with my formula.
(After Major Skill Balance Fix)

Max level = +25
Enchantment Spell = -0
Target self =+3
Effect 1= +50% more attack damage = -13
Effect 2= Duration = 11 seconds, -3
Effect 3= Take 50% more damage= +5
(Points left over)
14 points
Energy cost = 10, -4
Casting time = 1 second, -7
Recharge = 12 seconds, -5 points

Spell says
Shadow Form Buffer (Level 15) (Custom name)
Enchantment Spell = For 11 seconds your attacks deal 50% more damage, but take 50% more.

Energy =10
Casting time=2
Recharge =12

But, UW farmers don't use attacks, so...
Max level =+25
Enchantment Spell -0
Causes Exhaustion +2
Target Self = +3
Effect 1= Deal 50% more damage with spells. -20
Effect 2= Take 50% more damage = +5
Duration = 15 seconds, -4
Casting = 2 seconds, -5
Energy = 15, -2 points
Recharge = 15 seconds, -4

Name = Spell Buffer for Shadow Form (Level 15)
Enchantment Spell=For 15 seconds you deal 50% more damage but take 50% more damage. This Spell causes Exhaustion.

Recharge = 15
Energy = 15
Casting = 2

That looks like a combo called Intensity + "By Urals Hammer!". Except mine has A LOT shorter recharge. But that combo has less energy, less casting time, does not cause exhaustion and doesn't have +50% more taken damage.

To top that you can only do +17% more damage with Shadow Form on.

However add this spell into the mix = +66% more damage. But then you will be 6 skills down because you need Shadow Form, Paradox and Glyph of swiftness to keep this up. Means for the +66% you can only have 2 attack skills.
Lava Font = 41 damage /2.5 for level 150 armor x 66% = 33 damage for 5 seconds. That's adding the 2 skills with +30 seconds and more recharge.
Your last skill has to be Fire Attunement to reduce energy.

Your left with 1 attack skill and it it's best does 33 damage for 5 seconds

Or you can make the exact enchantment that does the same damage (66.6%) as adding the 2 other skills and save a spot. However, if you get hit with anything that isn't an attack or spell you take 100% more damage. BUT, you can take "By Urals Hammer!" and the 2 PvE custom skills. (ONLY 2 NON-ELITE AND 1 ELITE, Shadow Form is an elite) For a total of
+91% damage, /2.5 for 150 armor +41 damage = 39 damage for each second with all 3 skills on or 33 damage.

(REMEMBER, to have both skills on, you need 30 energy to cast and both cause exhaustion. To cast the spell Lava Font you need 10 energy (Get 4 back) So you need 36 energy to cast the combo. To recast it at 15 second again. (15 seconds can't get you 30 energy and that exhaustion back) (You will be out of energy ASAP)

As I said,

A lot of farming can come from combo's. It's possible to invent a ton of Farming possibilities.

Remember, you can only have 4 effects, you 6 (Deep Wound, Knockdown, Daze, Bleeding, life steal and rez)

Even if it is possible to have all of those effects. The conditions will last 0 seconds. Life stealing will also be 0 because use used all points. Rez (Which I haven't gotten to) would add 5 seconds to the casting time. Health, casting time and energy depends on the points

Your Spell would say

Shadow Step to target foe. Steals 0 life from all foes in the area and knocks them down. Foes also suffers from daze for 0 seconds, bleeding and deep wound 0 seconds. Also rezes all allies in the area to 5% health and 0 energy.

Recharge = 90
Energy = 25
Casting Time = 10

The spell can grow and add +15 points. But where do they go? You have so many effects. Durations for bleeding, deep wound, daze, life steal. Don't forget the casting addition for rez. Recharge is can go to 15 seconds with 4 points. Energy can go to 15 with 3 points. Casting will still be HUGE. You have 9 things to put 15 points into. (Technically, with the limit, you have 7)

That spell is worse than the PvP spell Smiters Boon (PvP) Just take out rez knockdown and life steal you may have a decent spell. Condition spreading shadow step. (The more effects, the shorter the duration) So spread a couple AoE conditions for a short while. Go into the middle of a spell casting mob. Spread the daze and have a poison tip barrager to interrupt them. Awesome condition spreading.

Using a bunch of info you didnt have in your OP is not an excuse.

The only real custom X that would be possible to add to the game would be the old suggestion of custom weapons. The game already has a balanced system setup with much less variables.

Creating a custom skill in a game liek guild wars just would not work.

Zodiac Meteor · Oct 25, 2008, 11:36 PM // 23:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by isamu kurosawa

Using a bunch of info you didnt have in your OP is not an excuse.

Only 1 piece of info wasn't in that entire post. (Rez). The other thing was the Fix Balance, which I didn't realized that is was overpowered, but yeah, the info was there. Where did you get a "bunch" from?

Quote:

Creating a custom skill in a game liek guild wars just would not work.

Do you want it to not work? Or plain out impossible to work.
The Custom Weapon idea is POSSIBLE but HARD. Why? Animation for each weapon. It would take a long time for making an animation for every little detail.

As I said in animation, the effects you choose will change the color of the animation/skill of an EXSISTING color you choose. If you choose the animation of Fire Storm and Fire Storm does holy and Cold damage. It also applies bleeding. The colors will be White (Holy). Blue (Cold) and Red (Bleeding) Each skill will have 3 areas of color change according to effects. Example, the center of the fire falling would be blue. The surrounding the center color would be white. The collision to ground would be red.

The skill animation would be chosen to type of effects. (If you have an Axe attack, it can't do fire storm. Only Axe attacks animations. A spell that does shadow damage would have a necromancer blood animations. etc.)

The colors The skill description can easily be organized. It can be a simple

Into the Dark
Elite Dagger Attack. Deals 67 cold damage. Deals 45 shadow damage. Target foe suffers from poison. Must follow a Dual Attack.

E=5
R=10
C=1

Bryant Again · Oct 26, 2008, 02:23 AM // 02:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

You need balance in PVE because?

This is pretty much exactly the same as the "don't like, don't use" argument. Just because it's optional and doesn't affect other players doesn't mean it's fine.

Making a good game is keeping that balance of having it be fun and full of quality. A fine example of ANet completely abandoning this is with Ursan Blessing (where many in support were using the same above argument), and further still with PvE skills and consumables.

To the OP: given the current state of balancing conundrum and exploitable builds currently on ANet's plate, I think having to tend to the possibility of having to balance an infinite possibility of skills is most certainly not something they'd be looking forward to. It's easy

To Bhaav: It's also interesting how you mention the spell creation system in Oblivion, largely because the most incredibly RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing broken beyond belief spells (tainted spells, 100% chameleon, insta-kills, free weightless daedric gear) are entirely user-created. I don't think GW needs something similar.

Konig Des Todes · Oct 26, 2008, 04:15 AM // 04:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Making a good game is keeping that balance of having it be fun and full of quality. A fine example of ANet completely abandoning this is with Ursan Blessing (where many in support were using the same above argument), and further still with PvE skills and consumables.

While many things in EN that were done were not beneficial (Non-Event Consumables and Non-Profession based PvE-skills), imo something like this could be beneficial as long as they have the end outcome of the skill not overpowered.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

To the OP: given the current state of balancing conundrum and exploitable builds currently on ANet's plate, I think having to tend to the possibility of having to balance an infinite possibility of skills is most certainly not something they'd be looking forward to. It's easy

While looking at it as an "infinite possibility of skills," yes it is not something to look forward to balancing. However, if you look at it as "balancing what skills can do" (i.e., balancing the combinations, not the numbers). Some combinations will have to be removed from being used (to prevent farming exploits), while others will have more benefits of using (the "weaker alone" combinations).

I would also suggest that only one of the Customized PvE skills can be used in a bar (maybe limit the whole creation thing to just 4 skills anyways). And of course, once made you cannot get rid of, a one chance deal in other words. If they are all made as elites, then it would remove the ability to use with a usually strong skill. And by making it count with the 3 PvE skill limit as well, that would further reduce exploiting.

In other words, if you bring a Customized PvE Skill you:
-Cannot have another one in your bar
-Cannot have an Elite Skill in your bar
-Can only have 2 regular PvE skills in your bar

And, of course, some abilities of skills should not be optional (such as unable to be targeted by attacks/spells/skills in general).

With these limitations (and probably a couple more) the amount of exploits would be reduced greatly, while still giving a "special elite skill."

jaximus · Oct 26, 2008, 04:26 AM // 04:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

You can take damage in shadow form. Vampire Touch, 65x2x50%=195 damage

after reading your response i see you have thought this out well, so i guess i wont argue with you, only issue is vamp touch is life steal not damage, so thats not a good example, just signets and touch skills that do damage would effect you, or pbaoe

Zodiac Meteor · Oct 26, 2008, 05:09 AM // 05:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin;4318994
I would also suggest that only [I

one[/I] of the Customized PvE skills can be used in a bar (maybe limit the whole creation thing to just 4 skills anyways). And of course, once made you cannot get rid of, a one chance deal in other words. If they are all made as elites, then it would remove the ability to use with a usually strong skill. And by making it count with the 3 PvE skill limit as well, that would further reduce exploiting.

In other words, if you bring a Customized PvE Skill you:
-Cannot have another one in your bar
-Cannot have an Elite Skill in your bar
-Can only have 2 regular PvE skills in your bar

And, of course, some abilities of skills should not be optional (such as unable to be targeted by attacks/spells/skills in general)

With these limitations (and probably a couple more) the amount of exploits would be reduced greatly, while still giving a "special elite skill."

I thought about that, but I never liked limitations. I love Zelda, but I would like it more if you had 50 swords, armor and shields to choose from. Variety=Possibility=Fun. The more you can play around with, the more fun you have. So far you can have 600 skills on one character. 75 of those skills are useful.
Yu-Gi-Oh, the bad card game has over 2000 cards but there is only 100 good ones at most.
Pokemon has over 400 different kids but only 20 really good ones.

Wouldn't be nice to create your own combo?
Shadow Step to target foe and all nearby foes are knocked down.
Spell = all knocked down foes suffers from Daze for 15 seconds and take 50 lightning damage
Elite Spell = Shadow Step to target ally and all allies in earshot lose one condition and gain 60 health.

Make combo's. Customize Combos to be exact.

Or have a team of 8 with a shout. Each shout knocks down all foes in earshot and allies one condition (each person has a different condition.) You could have a constant knockdown to all enemies if you time it every 2.1 seconds. You get to the name of the shout. Make a youtube video of people killing monsters by conditions by saying
"I Like!"
"Big!"
"Butts!"
"And!"
"I Cannot Lie!"
"You Other!"
"Brothers!"
"Can't Deny!"
Do that 3 times and monsters die, would that not make an awesome music video?
(Cryway vs. Conditions applying shouts, Cryway wins)

Take Guild Wars for a spin. 1 customized skill will help not over buffing (Cryway *COUGH*). 3 would may push it but we will never know unless Arena net actually gives this a second thought (Or a first for that matter).

Bryant Again · Oct 26, 2008, 06:58 AM // 06:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

While looking at it as an "infinite possibility of skills," yes it is not something to look forward to balancing. However, if you look at it as "balancing what skills can do" (i.e., balancing the combinations, not the numbers). Some combinations will have to be removed from being used (to prevent farming exploits), while others will have more benefits of using (the "weaker alone" combinations).

I would also suggest that only one of the Customized PvE skills can be used in a bar (maybe limit the whole creation thing to just 4 skills anyways). And of course, once made you cannot get rid of, a one chance deal in other words. If they are all made as elites, then it would remove the ability to use with a usually strong skill. And by making it count with the 3 PvE skill limit as well, that would further reduce exploiting.

In other words, if you bring a Customized PvE Skill you:
-Cannot have another one in your bar
-Cannot have an Elite Skill in your bar
-Can only have 2 regular PvE skills in your bar

And, of course, some abilities of skills should not be optional (such as unable to be targeted by attacks/spells/skills in general).

With these limitations (and probably a couple more) the amount of exploits would be reduced greatly, while still giving a "special elite skill."

However, then we start to walk into another problem, and that's of broad balancing. When it comes down to having to nerf a different perk, you're nerfing all the other skills in use of that perk. It's no different than nerfing a single skill in a build that wasn't exploitive in others, thus gimping those other builds.

When all is said and done balancing this feature alone could be as stressful and difficult as balancing a whole other campaign, and I'm under the firm belief that ANet have way too much to balance on their plates as is. The deciding factor here is your faith in ANet.

isamu kurosawa · Oct 26, 2008, 11:50 AM // 11:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

The Custom Weapon idea is POSSIBLE but HARD. Why? Animation for each weapon. It would take a long time for making an animation for every little detail.

Nobody has ever suggested such a custom weapon system. They have always been along the lines of pick an exhisting skin, pick its mods and give it a custom name. The custom name is the only part of the system that does not already exist.

I was against the pvp/pve skill split because i'd like to see some balance in pve. Skills like this would be impossible to balance properly no matter what numbers you come up with. certain abilities are more powerful combined with each other than with others.
You also have stacking order playing a role. If the deep would covered the bleeding on WS for example, the skill looses some of its power.
A system liek this lets people choose that order. (which was the main point of the skill i did, dw covered by everything and a KD to boot).
The res thing was just there to show the lack of restrictions on abilities and skill types, making a system like this unfeasable.